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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:25 am
by powerchute50
Hi. A Lazair I has come up for sale close to home. It has one siezed engine, one is still operating. The airframe is apparantly complete, but needs covering. It was a flying ultralight but has been stored for 10 years. My question is what changed between the model I and the model III, which I understand is the preferable design. Can the Lazir I be updated to the III? Is there information to help rebuild an older Lazair? The owner of this one isn't asking much money.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:24 pm
by rcso140
Type I=Overhead stick, no rudder pedals/ailerons, rudder and elevator all controled by the stick, narrow gear
Type II= Overhead stick, rudder pedals available, larger Rotax 185 engines
Type III=wide gear, stick on the floor

Anyone please correct me if I am wrong. I believe the Type I & II can be converted to a wide gear and rudder pedals added.

If you've got the time, money and willpower, the plane could be brought back to flying condition. Tedlar can be hard to find, but it is out there. Good luck and happy flying if you make the purchase. :)


PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:25 pm
by lazairiii
How much is he asking?
Are you willing to put in the work for the repairs and upgrades? If so, then there is an abundance of info to help you out. As long as the airfame and wings are not crash damaged, all will be straight forward. If damage needs to be repaired, then all is not lost even then. Parts can still be made to get you in the air. The most common engine is the Rotax 185. If the plane has Pioneers, there are a few guys still flying with them, but most have Rotax 185's. There are even a few with Hurth, Solo and KMF's and maybe others.

Keep us posted, and post pics of the plane so we can give you an evaluation of its current condition.
George C.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:28 am
by russell
Powerchute50, if you decide to get that Lazair and you need crashed Lazair I for parts let me know. Anybody else for that matter. It's all free for the taking except for the Pioneer engines. They are in very good shape with some new parts in them recently. Only about 20 minutes run time since rebuild, total 100 hrs. in air since 1980.

Russell Rewis
Valdosta, Georgia (20 miles from Florida border on I-75)
work: 229-244-8130
home: 229-559-4332

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:37 pm
by JPXman
oh no russel, did you prang your bird????

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:17 am
by russell
It was a perfect crash! Crumpled my prize possession and come out of it with a small bruise on my left thigh. I may not be much of a pilot but I can crash land an airplane with the best of 'em! Still trying to figure out just what was the cause. I was flying a medium size oval circuit and had made several laps when as I was coming out of one of the shallow turns the nose went up and I moved the stick as far forward as it would go and held it there. It never leveled out but rather just sorta hung there in that attitude at about 15 miles per hour and sinking. All this time I was approaching a power line and I had a chose of flying into the lines or banking away. I chose the latter because I had rather fly into the groud instead of fall straight down from that height. I knew that at that attitude and speed that the Lazair with such limited power from the Pioneers could not fly through this manuver, and of course it didn't and slipped wing first to the ground and pivoted 180 degrees on the wing tip and then the opposite side landing gear struck the ground traveling sideways. It spun half a round on the gear and stopped. I shut the engines down and got out quickly in order to motion to my friend so he wouldn't think he was gonna find a bad situation (me) when he approached me.
While looking over the plane briefly, I found that the fitting that holds the front down tube to the front of the boom (the one that the stick and all that portion of the controls) was broken. This would have taken a lot of the motion range out of the stick-forward travel; however this could have broken in the crash and I feel that that is more likely. I haven't looked it over very closely yet, still playing all of the action over and over in my head. It's a fact that the majority of crashes is pilot error and I surely am not discounting that as a cause, but for it to nose up and not react to down stick (Lazair is very pitch sensative asa you know) and quite confusing.
For some people it is rebuildable but after spending a year of all my spare time and money I just don't have it in me to go through this (and much more) again. Besides I do not have access to equipment to fabricate the pieces that it's gonna need.

Oh well, I'm up and moving around.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:05 am
by lazairiii

I have the 314/315 front pieces, and can make you what you need. Don't give up!! You have made a real effort on this plane to just toss it aside now. Give yourself a short break, and then get back at it. Let us know what we can do to help. Is your CG absolutely correct? It's not too tail heavy is it?

George Curtis

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:58 am
by Shannon
Oh man how unfortunate. You really worked hard to make the ship nice. "Crumpled" doesn't sound good at all, what is the extent of the damage ?

From your description it sounds as if you were low, slow, and turning when the plane went into the unrecoverable mush. Could it be you were caught in a rotor or downdraft at that vulnerable moment. What were the wind conditions like at the time. Were you at full power and/or did you go to full power when the airplane stopped responding ?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:36 pm
by russell
Thanks for the encouragement and gracious offer to make parts George. You're probably right in that perhaps I should give it a little more time before I give up, it's just that right now I'm a lot overwhelmed at the prospect of taking on that huge task.
I haven't given it a thorough inspection and from what I've seen some of you would not think it would be such a big undertaking. One wing has a couple of large dents in the skin at the end of the d-cell, caused by buckling I'm sure because it never nosed over. The large gusset which braces the root rib to the spar has a buckle in it. The tubes around the pilot are all bent, even the two that run from the axle to the rear portion of the boom. One main wheel is folded over along with the nose wheel. Outwardly, nothing looks to be damaged on the other wing or stablelizer/ruddervator. As I say it didn't nose over so the engines were still running when I came to a stop. On closer inspection I'm gonna find a lot more damage I'm sure.
I ruled out CG because I changed nothing from the way it was when I stopped flying it years ago and at that time I had logged approximately 100 hrs.. Nothing was added, taken away or relocated, even the same amount of gas was used and my feet and shoes were just as heavy as before!
Shannon, the day was hot but not any hotter than when I was last flying it. It was slightly breezey but not nearly enough for me to have been concerned with. As I stated earlier, I would never rule out pilot error, but it was after completing a shallow turn. Holding full forward stick, constant full power prior to the problem and the nose not coming down and not going up any farther is courious to me. I've done stalls in this plane before and full power stall speed is 10 mph, it stayed at 15. I had never been able to put it in a "mush" no matter what power setting I tried.
There is only one thing about the plane itself that I know was not like I wanted it to be. When I first assembled it while rebuilding in order to fit all hoses and cables and adjust ailerons and ruddervators, the trailing edges of the ailerons (stick in neutral position) were about a 3/16" to a 1/4" above the trailing edge of the wing. I intented to correct this prior to flying but forgot. I don't know enough about design to know if that would be on consequence. I'm open to suggestions even if they signify pilot error.

Sorry to get so wordy.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:01 pm
by Shannon
Russell I have no Series I experience so I'm just guessing along with you as to what happened. One thing I was made aware of is that a Series I could get into a "mush-stall" condition that could be hard to get out of. As it was explained to me you had to hold forward stick, go to full power, and actually lean forward. Doing this would help the plane "break over". With your low weight and with the reclined sling seat you may have been in the ideal weight-CG range for this to happen. In your description you mentioned you needed to "bank away" from powerlines. Banking would have only served to maintain a mush-stall condition. As a footnote it was common for Series I's with 5 gallon tanks have lead added to the nose to help with CG. Again just guess on my part but it really sounds like you entered a mush-stall condition without sufficient altitude to recover. Of course it could have been something mechanical and that should be easy to spot. I don't know about the slightly out of adjustment ailerons.. unlikely ? I sure hope this wasn't caused by a loose BE. That would be crazy huh !