Mylar

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Postby xgary » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:26 pm

ozzie
use mylar on tips sure?

i have used before alum .016 or 020 on top sideof tip riveted on adn use dacron on bottm

or go to mike mc kusick in michegan and get a set of NICE GLASS ONES

and they are nice.
Shorty .............
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Postby Guest » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:20 pm

Guest @ Nov 26 2004, 06:54 PM wrote: Quote: "Mylar as a covering material, when ALL aspects are considered, is a MORE desirable product that performs almost as well as the TEDLAR product that just can't be easily had."

On what evidence and experience have you drawn this conclusion ? What aspects make it more desirable ?


On what evidence ?? Experience ?? Cite the source of this knowledge ? What is your long term experience with Mylar. Have you ever covered anything with it ? Heck what is your experience with Lazairs in total for that matter.
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Postby senna12625 » Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:09 am

Wow... I ask for some assistance and I get castigated!!! Even the ubiquitous and anonymous GUEST apparently having nothing to contribute to the discussion... feels that I must document some level of Lazair connectedness in order to pursue knowledge??? This is not a pissing contest... it's an honest intellectual pursuit.

What I MEANT to write was that MYLAR was more desirable to ME... when all things were considered. It's attractions include cost... availability... shrinks more easily and maintains tautness better than Tedlar... VHB tapes hold better than the acrylic tape for Tedlar... clear vs milky appearance and when properly protected MYLAR is a durable covering with sufficient longevity. Now that last response is entirely subjective and personal. It's an opinion... everybody has one...

Look we could debate ad nauseum the virtues of particular covering materials... that's NOT my purpose here. I'm NOT ATTEMPTING to preach or convert anyone to MYLAR... I'm just looking for information!!! It may turn out in the end after I have investigated this material sufficiently to make an informed decision... that I WON'T use it... but the little I have learned to date... it's appealing.

Steve
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Postby lazairiii » Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:50 am

Hey Steve,

I appreciate your last comments and the fact you are trying to gain knowledge in an effort to make an informed decision that meets YOUR expectations.

If I could just say one thing, it is that there are several of us on this forum, me included, that have been around the Lazair since the early 80's and have discussed this topic many a time. What experience has shown us is that both Mylar and Tedlar were used with success. But Tedlar has lasted the test of time in UV resistance and longivity (a plane I cover personally in 1982, kit A-686 using Tedlar was just recovered for the first time this year), and this plane was stored for extended periods outdoor after I had sold it. I flew that plane for 12 1/2 years before I sold it too. I guess what I would recommend is Tedlar. I know you have moved onto Mylar, so if that is what you choose to use, protect it from the sun when not in use and maybe you can extend its life.

Get all this info you can, make an informed decision and get on with your project and enjoy the plane. Either way, you will have a blast flying the Lazair...and dispite the rocky start to you encountered here at the forum, welcome!!


Where are you? What series do you have?
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Postby senna12625 » Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:32 pm

Lazairiii,

I'm located in central Oregon... Crooked River Ranch. That's about 30 miles north of Bend. I'm originally from the LA Basin... Long Beach, Calif. I do not currently own a Lazair. Owned a Series 2 back in the 80's and flew with the Ken Nign bunch occasionally out at El Mirage Dry Lake in Southern California. His gang developed a bungie sprung wide gear and everyone modified their birds... it was a nice simple and effective mod. Ken's no longer with us but I occasionally talk to Larry, his son about the ol' days... actually Larry isn't doing too well after all those years breathing heated plastics.

I'm attaching a pic of the design I'm currently building. It's an early 80's ultralight that actually predates the FAR 103 regs. It's called an INVADER MKIIIB. Designed by Nick Liechty and Rick Berstling. Rick went on to produce the Bellaire and Nick designed a couple more... the Penetrater being one of the more unusual... the pilot lay prone on the upper surface of the wing. Anyway all his aircraft used MYLAR as a covering for the main wings and ruddervators. My attraction to this appealing craft was in part due to the visible structure. Stunning when viewed from below while the craft is in flight (as with the Lazair)!

So... does revealing this invalidate me and my pursuit on this forum?

Steve
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Postby senna12625 » Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:08 pm

I spent a considerable amount of time on the DuPont Teijin Films site looking at the technical specifications for all 223 PET films. To whittle the numbers down a bit I first went through and eliminated all non-clear films. That left about 190 to further consider. I then eliminated all films that didn't shrink at least 2% (Tedlar shrinks approx. 6%). That left me with 41. Eliminating films that were not at least 2 - 3 mils left 26 to consider. Unfortunately the one real candidate I had my eye on... the MYLAR HS (HS for high shrinkage) was eliminated because 1.5 mil is the thickest DuPont produces. I'm not all that certain but I believe that 1.5 mil is too thin to consider. I say unfortunately because that left me looking at films with shrinkage rates that are 2/3 to 1/3 of Tedlar's 6%... and I consider Tedlar to have fairly poor shrinkage. Hmmm... now what??? Maybe my understanding of the spec sheets stated shrinkage is leading me down the wrong path...

More effort needed... I do intend to push on and post what I discover...

Steve
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Postby lazair » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:45 am

Mylar talk.

Good discussion guys, seena seems to have gone thru alot of due diligence in his hunt for Mylar.


On a negative note for Mylar it have no UV protection abilities that I know of and it does become very brittle after UV exposure and possibly age as well.

You have talked about the 2 % and 6% shrink for Mylar vs. Tedlar -- is this an important factor? Probably not IMO.

There are still many Lazairs with Tedlar 20 years old flying and I will guarantee you that not many 20 yr old MYLAR covered planes IF any.


TEDALR is STRONG and proven.


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Postby Shannon » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 am

senna12625 @ Nov 27 2004, 04:32 PM wrote: Lazairiii,

I'm located in central Oregon... Crooked River Ranch. That's about 30 miles north of Bend. I'm originally from the LA Basin... Long Beach, Calif. I do not currently own a Lazair. Owned a Series 2 back in the 80's and flew with the Ken Nign bunch occasionally out at El Mirage Dry Lake in Southern California. His gang developed a bungie sprung wide gear and everyone modified their birds... it was a nice simple and effective mod. Ken's no longer with us but I occasionally talk to Larry, his son about the ol' days... actually Larry isn't doing too well after all those years breathing heated plastics.

I'm attaching a pic of the design I'm currently building. It's an early 80's ultralight that actually predates the FAR 103 regs. It's called an INVADER MKIIIB. Designed by Nick Liechty and Rick Berstling. Rick went on to produce the Bellaire and Nick designed a couple more... the Penetrater being one of the more unusual... the pilot lay prone on the upper surface of the wing. Anyway all his aircraft used MYLAR as a covering for the main wings and ruddervators. My attraction to this appealing craft was in part due to the visible structure. Stunning when viewed from below while the craft is in flight (as with the Lazair)!

So... does revealing this invalidate me and my pursuit on this forum?

Steve


Steve do you have any pictures of the El Mirage planes and the landing gear system you could scan and post.

Shannon
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Postby senna12625 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:04 pm

Shannon,

In October, 2003 everything I had was lost in the OLD FIRE firestorm. My weekend mountain cabin on Hook Creek Road in the Cedar Glen Area near Lake Arrowhead burned completely to the ground. Lost the Lazair & trailer...nothing survived. Hadn't flown it in over 15 years but it was stored really well and I had intentions. Left with the memories but even those are fading! I might be able to sketch what I remember...

Steve
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Postby senna12625 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:22 pm

Sometimes life can surprise you...!!! I went to the closet and dug around and lo & behold I came up with a pic of the wide gear mod. Not a very good one... but if I have one... maybe I have more. BIG surprise to me! Oh... this is a fellow SoCal flyers plane with the Ken Nign mod... not my aircraft... Sean Mitchel is his name... plane is for sale.

Steve
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