Mylar

Share your thoughts, photos and general help to all builders

Postby Shannon » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:13 pm

Oh man how unfortunate. Your picture rang a bell. I have some pictures of the plane also. Maybe you should pick this plane up and get it going while your working on the Invader. The wings and fuselage look to be in good condition. I remember a big write up on the El-Mirage guys in a UL Mag some years ago.
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Postby Chappy » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:39 am

Steve,

I remember seeing the Invader fly at Sun n' Fun. It reminded me of a modernized, redesigned Birdman TL-1A. I liked it a lot, although personally, I don't care for pushers, and I really don't like Teleflex cables used in control systems. The Invader looks like it would be easier than many planes to fit a variety of engines. I don't remember the specs anymore, but look at that nice, thick wing!

I think it's very appropriate to come here, to this forum, to discuss film covering systems, no matter what plane they were used on. Where else would you go? I've owned Lazairs for just about 25 years. I've built several, and done several recover jobs too, some in Mylar and some in Tedlar. Each has it's advantages. Dale Kramer and I rebuilt a wing with a damaged spar, and recovered it, in ONE EVENING after work while I was working for him at Ultraflight. I am also familiar with conventional fabric covering, as I've owned (a share in) an Aeronca Champ 7BCM for many years now. Covering a Lazair in fabric may very well be the most practical material, but it is heavier, more expensive, hides the interior from view, and IS A LOT MORE WORK TO INSTALL. And to me, it just wouldn't look like a Lazair.

I don't know what Shorty's problem is, but I'm beginning to understand why he got himself banned at one of the older Lazair forums. Behavior like his is what drives good people off these groups, and I for one don't appreciate it one little bit.

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Postby Chappy » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:46 am

Shannon,

I sure would be interested in knowing how much the Lazair pictured above weighs!

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Postby xgary » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:49 am

Chappy,

I don't know what Shorty's problem is, but I'm beginning to understand why he got himself banned at one of the older Lazair forums. Behavior like his is what drives good people off these groups, and I for one don't appreciate it one little bit.

Chappy


First off I did not get banned anywhere. Lazair flyers I left as I did not agree with Scott perkins and his BS. There was too much dreaming and crossed the line into safety and then they made it moderated so they could only post what he wanted anyone to read.

So enough said? Chappy you are a wealth of information from the early Lazair days and I usually read your posts and fee free to beat on me if i get outta line just as I would beat on someone if the facts get distorted.

And that lazair in the pic with the gear - omg must weigh a ton. What is hte purpose of changing such a fuctional gear like original gear. Mind you the ser III gear was superior and more stable.

Good points on the fabric but i would take I over MYLAR anyday and it not more work to install fabric just you have to paint it. And it will be stronger than MYLAR and most likely TEDLAR as well. Weight gain i not sure maybe with paint 20 lbs if that.
Shorty .............
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Postby xgary » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:24 pm

TEDLAR SPECS from George Curtis
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Postby Chappy » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:32 pm

Shorty,

Your arguments against Mylar vs Tedlar reminds me of the closed minded crap I'm always getting from my friends that fly Cessna's. How their metal skinned aircraft are so superior in all ways, and how any aircraft with fabric covering is inherently inferior and not worth even messing with. Yea, except every twenty years or so, we can strip off the covering and INSPECT EVERY INCH of our plane, and repair any thing that's not just right. Try that with an old rotting Cessna or Aircoupe, etc. I like to know what kind of shape the plane I'm flying really is in. Also, there's so much history in these old fabric airplanes, how could we ever just give up on them because they are "impractical". What I'm trying to saying is that there are advantages to EACH method, and just because one may better meet you're requirements or goals, it may not be necessarily better for me, or some others goals.

Shorty, I've done fabric covering, and film covering. How you can say they both take about the same time to do either means you've never done both, of you're doing something wrong.

Not to mention that just buying modern aircraft paint to do a fabric Lazair could currently cost you way more than a Tedlar covering kit.

Anyway, that's just my humble opinion. I'm not in the business, just drop in here now and then to brag a little about a very special thing (Lazairs) that have been part of my life for twenty five years now, and to maybe help others just a little that have discovered these marvelous planes too.

Nothing would make me happier than to meet you, and the rest of the regulars on these groups, in person, and get to fly around the sky with you in our little, very special planes.

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Postby senna12625 » Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:40 pm

If I remember correctly the weight of my gear mod added approx 7 lbs to my Series II... that's totaling up the weight you take off and subtracting it from the weight of the new gear set & Azuzalite wheels. It may of been 9 lbs... I do remember is was less than 10.

The dry lakes may look perfectly smooth but in SoCal the immense populace of recreationalists competing for areas to recreate created conflicts of interest. The ground bound (2, 3 & 4 wheeled) steroid horsepower bunch seemed to take great delight in tearing around the dry lake after our rainy season (yeah... we had a rainy season out there) creating deep and numerous ruts that once dried out (to the consistency of concrete)... made for a surface more like a railway track bed! The bungie gear helped greatly to CUSH out the bumps. A compromise that I accepted... comfort vs increase in weight.

There are appropriate choices in the many fabric coverings on the market, some more appropriate than others, one or two (debateable depending on who you talk to) appropriate choices in the Tedlar, and now I'm looking for the most appropriate choice in Mylar. Speaking strickly of the proven longevity... I wholeheartedly agree with everyone about TEDLAR as the most desirable choice for the film coverings. HOWEVER in my particular case I require a material width that the current forum member supplier of the MOST APPROPRIATE long lived FILM doesn't have. My hershey bar wing panels on the design I'm building have a 54" chord. So my explorations are for a film that's at least 60" wide. So when the MOST APPROPRIATE FILM can't be had... I MUST opt for Plan B. When examining Plan B (in this case Mylar) I find a great attraction to its clarity, cost, availability (although this one is starting to look debatable) shrinkage and tautness.

It's apparent by the responses that longevity seems to be the main issue of concern. We have Ozzie stating "there are several mylar covered MK 1's still with original mylar here in Australia flying with no problems... secret is to keep them covered & out of the sun.... (when not flying).

He also wrote "The factory recommended recovering the mylar top surface once a year and both surfaces every second year. The factory also put in a ridiculous safety factor. In OZ we have a real sun and we have the skin cancer rate to prove it. Most Lazairs here are still flying on the original covering of mylar and they still pass the slap and bash test. The one that was left all the time in the sun and weather did fall apart but it still took 5 years of constant exposure.

And lastly Ozzie says " I am more than happy so far with the mylar and the tape choices I made."

Chappy's experience led him to state "I have also had Mylar covering that was well protected from light last well over ten years, perhaps fifteen. If Mylar is always protected except for flight hours.

He also wrote "I last recovered them (wings) in 1984 (!) for an outside display at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum that summer (after my daughter broke out an upper panel by hitting it with her fist as hard as she could). Even though I could walk on the wings without the panels breaking, I decided to recover. I just now went out to my trailer and slapped the stuffings out of the wings, and nothing popped.

Although I keep it trailered, it has spent many hours flying in the sun, and many weeks tied down and exposed to the weather over the years, much of it in the Florida summer sun. Pretty good for crap, I'd say."

I can't as yet find anyone to comment on Mylar's standard use on the design I'm building... but I personally believe I should explore this material fully. I think it has a place as an OPTION for myself and possibly others. I would of loved to have easily located the exact Mylar film specification or designation but since that is not the case... may the next individual seeking this information have an easier time of it due to my efforts... if I'm sucessful. :rolleyes:

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Postby senna12625 » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:33 pm

No additional movement on the MYLAR front... I have however been ruminating about TEDLAR that may expand the number of film choices for covering or re-covering. If a person is not at all concerned with having the GLOSSY surface APPEARANCE... then it opens the field somewhat to other candidates. OH... it also supposes DuPont manufactures all these particular films.

If TUT20BG3 is a TEDLAR/UV Screening/Transparent/2 mil/2 Surface Adherable/Glossy/ Type 3 Standard tensile and Elongation FILM... wouldn't you have exactly the same physical properties if you were to use a TUT20BM3 (MEDIUM gloss)... TUT20BL3 (LOW Gloss)... TUT20BS3 (SATIN Gloss)... with ONLY the surface appearance changing.

Also there IS a TRANSLUCENT WHITE Tedlar with the same UV screening as the above Transparent films. If you desire a translucent white finish then TUW20BG3 is what you want. Follow that along with the same change of surface appearance and TUW20BM3 (MEDIUM gloss)... ... TUW20BL3 (LOW Gloss), and TUW20BS3 (SATIN Gloss) are candidates.

AND... if you desire an OPAQUE WHITE Tedlar with UV BLOCKING... TWH20BG3 is the choice and with differing surface appearance... TWH20BM3 (MEDIUM gloss), TWH20BL3 (LOW gloss), TWH20BS3 (SATIN Gloss).

Somebody find the flaw in this... OR do we have a MUCH larger choice for the TEDLAR product than we originally thought???

I can see it now... WHITE OPAQUE or WHITE TRANSLUCENT on the top surfaces... CLEAR on the bottom surfaces... OR vice-versa!!!

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Postby ozzie » Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:08 am

Steve you are really putting in some time on your research and by now it looks like you are a real aurthority on this subject, your efforts will no doubt be a benifit to all at some time. thanks. ok dupont is not the only ones making this type of material. when i found my Lazair it had with it lots of bits and pieces left over from several kits that were ratted for spares including the excess of several rolls of film two mylar and one tedlar and one roll that came from england that was basically the same as tedlar. all these leftovers still did there thing after being stashed in the roof of the owner for about 15 years. point is i found the label of the film. i contacted them and was referred back to the aussie agents. i did not follow it up as george came good on a roll of mylar(my first prefference based on trying to keep my rebuild as historically correct as i could.) you may wish to follow this up.
the product is Tygavac RF205 it measurments were 1 mtr wide 137mts long .050 thick There email is sales@tygavac.co.uk site is www.tygavac.co.uk hope this takes you somewhere positive ozzie
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Postby senna12625 » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:26 pm

Ozzie.

Thanks... now I have my first product designation to chase about! I can call DuPont and give them the TYGAVAC info asking for the Dupont equivalent! Perfect!!!

I've discovered that John Moody (America's father of UL's) flies his Easy Riser with crystal clear Mylar over his highly polished aluminum! Also the fellow called FATHER GOOSE, the guy that taught geese to migrate... Bill Lishman flies his Easy with Mylar. So I have 2 more venues to check out... although I heard John was injured recently while giving a flight demonstration.

Eventually we'll condense this morass into a solution...!

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