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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:25 pm
by Shannon
What number do you have ??

Professional Fiberglass
(989) 227-6509

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:32 pm
Hi everyone! Thank you so much for the spontanious support I got from you all.
This site is realy somthing els.
After all that was sayd about "D" cell I feel much more confident to try it again.

I will sure let you know how it went!
But I was thinking !!!! again!!!

Would'nt it be nice if some of us would be able to produce some of the missing parts for others.
Let say I get good at "D" cells, another guy could probably get good at landing gear tubs.
an other could cut ribs and so forth!!!!. who Knoes may be the whole of us restart the line.
We could keep this plane flying another twenty years. I know we got what it takes together.
It may sounds crasy but it 's been seen befor!

These days I was looking at how far the hobby industry is coming with electric brushless motors and I am telling you. Powering a LAZAIR model I (the light one) is now possible.
Take a look on google at brushless_ motor.
it is called the predato 30-8 This thing gives 12.5KW at 48volts and 66lb of trust on a 30"x8 KF prop
Now if you think about the weight saving and how much more battery you could take alof. you could fly for close to fourty minutes.

Imagine!!!!! No more mufflers ,noise,vibrations,oil,gaz smell,carbs and plugs problemes,no more timing and points.
Just charge and fly!

Dreaming is still legal!

Think about it !!!!
Thanks again guys!!!


PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:07 am
by ozzie
thanks for the link to that site. several have been looking at this. very little on this scale here in Oz but i would like to be the first to fly here with elec. power. i've seen some interesting footage of a paraglider backpak churning 75 kilo of thrust. he is around the Toronto area. i too like the idea of vibration and noise free flying. It usually only takes 5 minutes to your first thermal, so 30 minutes of battery is plenty. bit weighty tho. ozzie

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:29 am
by kiloone
Hi everyone, I got asked in a direct email to help on this thread.

I've been way too busy on other projects to continue with electric Lazair.

These new bigger motors are great, but the controller for it is the key.

I was going to use 4 smaller ones are about 25 lb thrust but when I get back to it, I will probably got to 2 bigger ones.

Lazair4ever, about your pictures. First, a twist of this size in the leading edge tip skin is not too serious if the other wing is similar. From what I can tell the wing was assembled with about the correct washout. The twist just causes a bit of extra camber in the tip.

I don't recall ever having glued the dcell ribs in all the way around. If there are any out there it may be from people following a technical update about loose ribs. I'm sure this is posted somewhere. The aircraft was load tested with just the ribs glued into the spar. At some point we did add the glue bead done the leading edge radius to act as another sort of rib holder.

As for a fix, I would have left it alone as long as the other wing is similar and the washout is correct.

If you wish to fix it here goes. The twist is not set by leading edge bend location. It is set by where the twist is set at the time of drilling all the skin attach holes, including the slice to main skin holes. I may be easier to replace the tip spars as they are easier to fabricate and use the skin holes to locate new holes in spar. If you do this you should double up the splice to the main skin rivets by drilling new holes between the old ones. Optimally, the tip metal rib in the dcell should 'line up' with the rear metal tip rib when the tip is set to the proper washout.

The tip skins were formed in a relatively simple jig but it required a solid steel mandrel tapered from about 1.5" dia to 1/2" dia over the 6 ft length.

This mandrel was kept straight by an Aframe attached to it and it was pushed down into 2 2x4's that were held rigidly at the same taper. The 2 2x4s were mounted on a simple bending brake device so that the final set could be achieved by squeezing the 2 2x4' together after the mandrel was between them.

The first few Lazairs tip skins were made by two people, a pc of carpet and a 6 ft 2x6.

Put a pc of tape on the ends of the sheet where the bend center is desired. Put the skin on the floor on the carpet. Fold the skin over and apply pressure with each person near the ends of the 2x6. As each person applys bending pressure, they simply roll their end of the 2x6 back and forth so that the bend center matches their pc of tape. The guy on the 1/2 inch bend radius end has to put way more force on the 2x6 to get his radius. The 2x6 ends up being a couple inches back from the leading edge when the bend is complete. If you are careful and do this repeatedly you should not go thru too many skins before you get a good one. I don't recall ever throwing a skin away but it is a skill thing.

Hope this helps and I addressed all the problems.

Dale Kramer

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:34 am
by kiloone
The 2x6 actually is much closer to the leading edge bend at the small radius end. As I recall, a couple inches at the small end and 4 to 6 inches at the big end.

Dale Kramer

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:18 pm
Thank you sir!
I am on my way to success. You just gave me this extra I needed to correct my wing tips.
The rest of the guys on the forum had done good too. Thanks to them too!
I got concerned about them tips because I remembered that the last owner said that he scared him self flying with this plane and he did not know why.
And wing tips were not similar to one another.

Happy to see that you like these biger motors. If I have a little more time on my hands I will probably go for something like that too. I would just love electric powered flying.
It alredy maid a big difference for me as a modeler.

Controlers are the key you say? I happen to know the men that own icar sail plane which selles these big motores. I will get in touche with him and see what he sais.He knows the market quite well.
If I get news I 'll let you know.

Thanks again Mr Cramer.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:22 am
by ozzie
Hi guys. it looks like a lot of us are looking at going electric. It has been very slow finding out information and teaching myself along the way. suitable suppliers are few and far between. i considered 4 smaller engines as Dale did but for different reasons. Twin engines are out for ultralights in Austrailia and Lazairs only get in under a grandfather clause. Fernando turned up at the national fly in with his 4 pioneer engines and they told him to go home. So i'll have to stay with the twin set.
What i am trying to avoid with the small close knit suppliers here is mentioning that it is for an ultralight and having them do the "3M doorslam" on me. So links to above sites are much appreciated. And might help me blowing my megar budget. Thanks L4E and Dale.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:37 pm
Good for you ozzi.
For sure you never say "ultralight" because if you do!
They get scared and they'll refuse to sell you anything.

By the way! I fixed one of my leading edge very easely. It took me like five minutes to get it right with the carpet methode from Dale.Thanks Dale!

But the other leading edge was much more complicated.
I could not get the bend right where I wanted it. and ended up folding it too much so I had to bring it to a friend of mine that as a break to get it flat again. But than we maid some creas in the sheet metal so I still have to try it again.
But I am sure that with new sheet metal it would be very easy to do, once you have located where you want you radius.

I was looking at a frensh site it is called APPULMA.
On their link there's a site that was talking about an electric back pack for paramotors and these guys get fouty minuts for 90lb of trust for sixty somme pounds weight of total equipment. So! You know we don't need the big hoop around the prop and the motor weight is wayyyy!!!!! less which lives lots of over for battery weight.
fourty minutes is a lot.

Bob Bouche is an expert at electic systemes of this type. He ownes a conpany called astro flight which sells high performence motors and controler for big models. he would know what controler to use on that type of rigg.



PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:25 am
by ozzie
G'day L4E

seems like a tough road to get your wings fixed. but no one seems to get it right the first time around. something that no one mentioned about picking up the holes for the new skin. i found on mine from previous repairs that a lot of holes had been drilled out off centre (butchered) and a 1/8 rivet was pretty useless so i used 3/16 were needed.

I've been reseaching away on these engines. the thrust figures are pretty impressive. they leave the pioneers for dead. A couple of things that pop to mind is they say they fly models around 30lb in weight. would the bearings be able to handle the weight of the Lazairs without pulling the shaft out? And could we run our nylon props on these engines. the pitch and diameter used on there tests seem close to our blades. (although to date, no one has seemed to work out the pitch of our props.) Will torque or lack of it, be a factor to spin the prop up to rpm?
I had a look at the predator that you metioned so small for the size.
I have seen the photos and video of the guys from Toronto area that made the packpack they state 75kgs of thrust takes three to hold it. the time to full thrust from off is twice as fast as any combustion engine. It would have to be like comparing the smoothness and "real" power of say a PT6 turbine to a big radial. They also burnt out a couple of controllers. Shame the photos do not show any real detail but looks very neat.
I live not far from our state university that have a dedicated photovolatic dept. they build the solar powered cars that race down thru the centre of Australia very high voltages 400 plus. they have released some very early plans for their hub motors you can build if you want. but other than that they are very tight on giving out info.
be nice to cover the wings with their lightweight high efficiency panels as the next step. B)

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:28 pm
Hi Ozzie

Solar power! Now you talk.

That would be real nice!

Not even having to charge.

Great in your contry with all that sun!